|
Post by antonio on Jan 7, 2022 2:33:37 GMT
That doesn't matter, you write something when you want to, always nice for others on here to see what kit is being used by others. When I first joined a forum, I never wrote much, now of course I make a right nuisance of myself, especially on here cause I like em so much.
|
|
Bigman80
Grandmaster
AA Founding Member & Bigbottle Audio Creator
Posts: 16,093
|
Post by Bigman80 on Jan 7, 2022 6:39:36 GMT
You are very welcome to join if you want to 👍
|
|
|
Post by macca on Jan 7, 2022 10:54:46 GMT
Thank you for the reply. I don't have the Mutec yet, currently I plug the USB input of the Spring to a Raspberry Pi USB output (installed Ropieee on it), I thought the PLL on the USB input was very good but your post makes me wonder if the Mutec could enhance the sound (vs direct USB input), especially the soundstage. Any thought ? Any idea if the PLL is as good on all inputs ? I read the Mutec can be better or worse than PLL depending if the DAC’s PLL is "slow" (is good) or "fast" (is bad) but I have no idea what kind of PLL the spring 3 has. If I went this path, do you think the Digibit Aria brings something to the table or I could simply connect the Raspberry Pi on the Mutec via USB ? oh well I suppose someone should offer the alternative advice Getting perfect digital playback is pretty easy, you don't need to worry about the PLL or reclockers. What you have is already optimal. If you want some genuine improvements in sound quality put the money towards better loudspeakers and improving the acoustics of your room.
|
|
Bigman80
Grandmaster
AA Founding Member & Bigbottle Audio Creator
Posts: 16,093
|
Post by Bigman80 on Jan 7, 2022 11:38:55 GMT
Thank you for the reply. I don't have the Mutec yet, currently I plug the USB input of the Spring to a Raspberry Pi USB output (installed Ropieee on it), I thought the PLL on the USB input was very good but your post makes me wonder if the Mutec could enhance the sound (vs direct USB input), especially the soundstage. Any thought ? Any idea if the PLL is as good on all inputs ? I read the Mutec can be better or worse than PLL depending if the DAC’s PLL is "slow" (is good) or "fast" (is bad) but I have no idea what kind of PLL the spring 3 has. If I went this path, do you think the Digibit Aria brings something to the table or I could simply connect the Raspberry Pi on the Mutec via USB ? oh well I suppose someone should offer the alternative advice Getting perfect digital playback is pretty easy, you don't need to worry about the PLL or reclockers. What you have is already optimal. If you want some genuine improvements in sound quality put the money towards better loudspeakers and improving the acoustics of your room. Macca, the soundstage issue Romain is experiencing was resolved here and at Alans by turning the PLL off. That's all he needs to do. I'm not saying he needs the Mutec, just that we used one here. Had you heard that Holo with PLL on and PLL off, you'd be in total agreement. I promise....it isnt small changes.
|
|
|
Post by macca on Jan 7, 2022 12:51:53 GMT
Maybe so but I wasn't specifically commenting on that aspect. As you say you can just toggle that on or off and use the preferred setting.
|
|
|
Post by misterc on Jan 8, 2022 10:15:56 GMT
Both suggestions will bring psotive results no problem at all Romain
The Holo May & S3 genuinelly sound much better with the PLL switched off (In NOS mode) and a relcoking device place in the chain they are many on the market ranging for £80 to more than the cost of your dac. We have a number of customers with Holo products. ALL of either run with the PLL off and a reclocking device in NOS or HQ player when using the internal OS, both cases deliver a positive and reported back quality improvement. HQ plyaer is a software upsampler which is usually tied in with roon. Firebottle on this very palace of audio harmony residence can shed more light personally as he owns the KTE variant of the Spring 3 plus he's a wise old owl and knows his elecronics rather well.
Another suggestion would be to try placing the speakers in a more sonically desriable position that way its ust some time and effort it has cost you.
Macca's suggetsion of different speakers again is a very fair comment, and can lead to quality improvements (Room acoutsics permittting) You would need to weigh up the cost, space incursions plus any female disapproving looks. But a solid suggestion.
One of the May's we used in the lab for basic testing. We used with a DDC it clearly helped the stanging, but also delivered a geater sense of ease, naturalness and upper frequency soomthness that isn't present with the dac on its own. That isn't to say its not great wihout one because it is, however if you get the chance loan a good ddc and make your own mind up.
|
|
|
Post by firebottle on Jan 8, 2022 12:48:35 GMT
Do you mean PLL off Tony?
|
|
|
Post by misterc on Jan 8, 2022 14:07:45 GMT
Do you mean PLL off Tony? Sorry Alan, late night
Have corrected it now, the OS on both the S3 and May arn't that good, its NOS presentation is superior compared to its internal OS for tonality and presence. For those that really like the NOS syle of sound it presents then switch of its internal PLL and use a reclocker. To improve it's OS performnace then either a software app like HQPlayer or ypu could use an upsampler (some have suggested a Chord m-scaler with its 768khz ability, although the S3 & May can happily double this to 1.526Khz) personally I perfer a reclocker, having performed the back to back comparisions on 16 dacs now including the dave and Hugo TT k2 and bit or something lol). Though you can try the HQP for 30 mins on a free demo if you wish.
Given that that measured performnace of the S3 and May internal clocking is very good, it does make you wonder
|
|
|
Post by sq225917 on Jan 8, 2022 14:10:32 GMT
Only makes me wonder that you're hearing things...
|
|
Bigman80
Grandmaster
AA Founding Member & Bigbottle Audio Creator
Posts: 16,093
|
Post by Bigman80 on Jan 8, 2022 15:12:38 GMT
Only makes me wonder that you're hearing things... Come for a visit.....you can hear things too. 😉
|
|
|
Post by misterc on Jan 8, 2022 15:18:39 GMT
Only makes me wonder that you're hearing things... Well Simon guilty as charged, I hear things every single day all different, measure them to far more in depth the the usual suspects.
However the fact remains it does without question sound different and is repeatable every time
|
|
|
Post by macca on Jan 8, 2022 16:56:25 GMT
It seeming to be repeatable isn't evidence that anything real is happening. That's a common misconception.
|
|
|
Post by stevew on Jan 8, 2022 17:10:53 GMT
Has someone spiked my drink with acid?
|
|
|
Post by macca on Jan 8, 2022 17:32:04 GMT
ever typed 'form' instead of 'from' and not noticed? Even an important e-mail that you've proof read six times before sending? And every time you read 'form' as 'from' since that's what you unconsciously expected to see. So you saw it. Repeatedly.
|
|
|
Post by misterc on Jan 8, 2022 18:05:20 GMT
300% stand by my thoughts no question.
|
|
Bigman80
Grandmaster
AA Founding Member & Bigbottle Audio Creator
Posts: 16,093
|
Post by Bigman80 on Jan 8, 2022 18:19:20 GMT
300% stand by my thoughts no question. You should do. You're right.
|
|
|
Post by electronumpty on Jan 8, 2022 18:54:38 GMT
When I hit my head it hurts, every time, repeatedly. But nothing is happening, it's not real.
|
|
|
Post by stryder5 on Jan 8, 2022 18:55:00 GMT
ever typed 'form' instead of 'from' and not noticed? Even an important e-mail that you've proof read six times before sending? And every time you read 'form' as 'from' since that's what you unconsciously expected to see. So you saw it. Repeatedly. That’s why it’s taught, if you really deal with important documents, to proof read them backwards. This denies the subconscious associations. Gary
|
|
|
Post by sq225917 on Jan 8, 2022 20:32:24 GMT
Tony, well have to arrange a mutually convenient date, I'll bring my Paradise. I assume you still deign to scrape that low?
|
|
|
Post by Romain on Jan 9, 2022 3:16:18 GMT
If you want some genuine improvements in sound quality put the money towards better loudspeakers and improving the acoustics of your room. My room in not perfect but I've done some treatment with the help of GIK Acoustics. I have the Dynaudio Special Forty on speaker stands, column speakers will probably not sound good in my little room. Any suggestions for very resolving bookshelf speakers < 10k that would feel like a real upgrade from my current speakers ? My goal is to believe musicians and singers are in the room but I'm not there yet... My next upgrade is probably going to be power treatment (living in a big city).
|
|
|
Post by romain on Jan 9, 2022 3:43:36 GMT
Both suggestions will bring psotive results no problem at all Romain The Holo May & S3 genuinelly sound much better with the PLL switched off (In NOS mode) and a relcoking device place in the chain they are many on the market ranging for £80 to more than the cost of your dac. We have a number of customers with Holo products. ALL of either run with the PLL off and a reclocking device in NOS or HQ player when using the internal OS, both cases deliver a positive and reported back quality improvement. HQ plyaer is a software upsampler which is usually tied in with roon. Firebottle on this very palace of audio harmony residence can shed more light personally as he owns the KTE variant of the Spring 3 plus he's a wise old owl and knows his elecronics rather well. Another suggestion would be to try placing the speakers in a more sonically desriable position that way its ust some time and effort it has cost you. Macca's suggetsion of different speakers again is a very fair comment, and can lead to quality improvements (Room acoutsics permittting) You would need to weigh up the cost, space incursions plus any female disapproving looks. But a solid suggestion. One of the May's we used in the lab for basic testing. We used with a DDC it clearly helped the stanging, but also delivered a geater sense of ease, naturalness and upper frequency soomthness that isn't present with the dac on its own. That isn't to say its not great wihout one because it is, however if you get the chance loan a good ddc and make your own mind up. I have tried OS with HQplayer with settings as advised by GoldenSound (youtube) and although it made the sound a bit "smoother" I preferred NOS, I felt the music was closer to the real thing. Since I read your review I have tried PLL off with the USB input and the sound was a bit different but not better, probably a bit worse. I still wonder if I should buy a Mutec and use the coax input instead. I have tried different positions with my speakers but I don't have a lot of room so it's 50cm from the back wall and on the sides it's asymmetric (70cm on the right and 2m on the left) Indeed room treatment has been very helpful by controlling the reverb, bass and first reflections. I thought that with the USB galvanic isolation and PLL present in Spring 3 KTE and May a DDC was not necessary ? What input did you use with the DDC ?
|
|
|
Post by romain on Jan 9, 2022 4:26:52 GMT
Looks like on the May the i2s input is even better than coax when using PLL off and reclocking : probably because there is no internal conversion in the May with i2s
|
|
Bigman80
Grandmaster
AA Founding Member & Bigbottle Audio Creator
Posts: 16,093
|
Post by Bigman80 on Jan 9, 2022 8:44:58 GMT
Looks like on the May the i2s input is even better than coax when using PLL off and reclocking : probably because there is no internal conversion in the May with i2s What's the source for your DAC? A RPI?
|
|
|
Post by macca on Jan 9, 2022 9:32:36 GMT
ever typed 'form' instead of 'from' and not noticed? Even an important e-mail that you've proof read six times before sending? And every time you read 'form' as 'from' since that's what you unconsciously expected to see. So you saw it. Repeatedly. That’s why it’s taught, if you really deal with important documents, to proof read them backwards. This denies the subconscious associations. Gary I never knew that but makes sense.
|
|
|
Post by macca on Jan 9, 2022 9:40:20 GMT
If you want some genuine improvements in sound quality put the money towards better loudspeakers and improving the acoustics of your room. My room in not perfect but I've done some treatment with the help of GIK Acoustics. I have the Dynaudio Special Forty on speaker stands, column speakers will probably not sound good in my little room. Any suggestions for very resolving bookshelf speakers < 10k that would feel like a real upgrade from my current speakers ? My goal is to believe musicians and singers are in the room but I'm not there yet... My next upgrade is probably going to be power treatment (living in a big city). So hard to recommend speakers. I mentioned them because no matter what speakers you use there is always room for improvement, unlike other things. I've always aimed to have the instruments and singers sound like they are in the room they were recorded in, rather than being in my room, but there's no right or wrong there. What's your amplification? Unless you have break up in the audio when appliances turn on and off I would not recommend spending any money on mains products, that's power cables, filters, regenerators, balanced mains etc, none of them do anything to improve sound quality.
|
|
Bigman80
Grandmaster
AA Founding Member & Bigbottle Audio Creator
Posts: 16,093
|
Post by Bigman80 on Jan 9, 2022 9:56:01 GMT
My room in not perfect but I've done some treatment with the help of GIK Acoustics. I have the Dynaudio Special Forty on speaker stands, column speakers will probably not sound good in my little room. Any suggestions for very resolving bookshelf speakers < 10k that would feel like a real upgrade from my current speakers ? My goal is to believe musicians and singers are in the room but I'm not there yet... My next upgrade is probably going to be power treatment (living in a big city). I would not recommend spending any money on mains products, that's power cables, filters, regenerators, balanced mains etc, none of them do anything to improve sound quality. That has not been my experience at all.
|
|
|
Post by macca on Jan 9, 2022 10:24:54 GMT
I would not recommend spending any money on mains products, that's power cables, filters, regenerators, balanced mains etc, none of them do anything to improve sound quality. That has not been my experience at all. except that time you brought your amps and DAC around to mine and had a listen to them in a foo-free system? Speakers and room mate, it's 99 percent of it.
|
|
Bigman80
Grandmaster
AA Founding Member & Bigbottle Audio Creator
Posts: 16,093
|
Post by Bigman80 on Jan 9, 2022 10:31:58 GMT
That has not been my experience at all. except that time you brought your amps and DAC around to mine and had a listen to them in a foo-free system? Speakers and room mate, it's 99 percent of it. Yeah, but it isn't foo macca.....I haven't stuffed my system with fuses made it pterodactyl egg shells, or put my speaker cables on risers whilst I dangle wooden pendulums from the ceiling. The stuff I've done in my system has been based on pretty solid reasoning. It may be wise to hear the effect of my tomfoolery in my system before declaring it a waste of time. However, I do agree that 80% of everything you need is improved by better amplification and speakers.
|
|
|
Post by stevew on Jan 9, 2022 11:19:54 GMT
If you want some genuine improvements in sound quality put the money towards better loudspeakers and improving the acoustics of your room. My room in not perfect but I've done some treatment with the help of GIK Acoustics. I have the Dynaudio Special Forty on speaker stands, column speakers will probably not sound good in my little room. Any suggestions for very resolving bookshelf speakers < 10k that would feel like a real upgrade from my current speakers ? My goal is to believe musicians and singers are in the room but I'm not there yet... My next upgrade is probably going to be power treatment (living in a big city). Funnily enough, the Dynaudio Special Forty are on my list of stand mounts to try and listen to as replacements this spring. One thing I’ve learnt in the last year is I couldn’t do without Townshend bars (or podium if you can stretch to it). Transformational in my system that has made me question whether I even need new speakers. Time will tell on that one.
|
|
|
Post by macca on Jan 9, 2022 11:20:11 GMT
I count anything to do with the mains as foo. Except if there's some other device causing interference in the audio signal. Which is pretty rare. Even then fancy mains cables won't fix it.
I agree it's a question of where you draw the line, I draw it a lot lower than you do since it isn't logical to draw it any higher. There are things that make real differences and things that don't. Everything that doesn't make a real difference is foo.
If you can measure a change in the analogue output it's real (although still not necessarily audible), if you can't then it's foo.
The worst place to be is between two camps. Someone who thinks 'grounding boxes' do something but scoffs at magic crystals or cable lifters. There's no logic to that.
|
|