Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Feb 1, 2023 20:12:45 GMT
You won't do better than a 686 IMO. I don't know if the 686 is the greatest amplifier of all time. In fact, it's possible that it isn't, but I do know I haven't heard anything at that price that does anything near what the 686 can do. A great design. Provided it's built correctly. However, optical has another amplifier of interest to edward so i am pretty sure he is asking whether that got a run out with the Vader's.
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Post by macca on Feb 1, 2023 20:36:02 GMT
given the bass has it's own amplifiers I'm guessing they are not that tough a load. Or would need an amp with loads of power. Be interested to know.
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Arke
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Post by Arke on Feb 1, 2023 20:37:02 GMT
edward From a technical/measurements perspective the Vaders/CNO4s are very easy to drive when semi active (the ones I have). The 12" bass drivers are driven by 2 x 500W plate amps and the off board amplifier drives the top enclosure. The top enclosure is an easy load and can easily be driven by many Valve and Solid state amplifiers. Impedance easurements: www.troelsgravesen.dk/CNO-4.htm#MEASUREMENTS
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Post by firebottle on Feb 1, 2023 20:38:23 GMT
I don't really know of another amp with such stunningly low distortion, certainly at the price band we are talking about Plus you are not short of power with a 686.
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Post by macca on Feb 1, 2023 20:50:03 GMT
edward From a technical/measurements perspective the Vaders/CNO4s are very easy to drive when semi active (the ones I have). The 12" bass drivers are driven by 2 x 500W plate amps and the off board amplifier drives the top enclosure. The top enclosure is an easy load and can easily be driven by many Valve and Solid state amplifiers. Impedance easurements: www.troelsgravesen.dk/CNO-4.htm#MEASUREMENTS Wow you could drive them with a 20 watt Sanyo! Sell the expensive amps to offset the cost of the speakers. Ideal for valve amps too.
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optical
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Post by optical on Feb 1, 2023 21:02:13 GMT
Re amp combos with these Vader's, I'd suggest the windows will give out long before most amps.
Yes it has a lot of power too but the 686 just provided incredibly clear details and allowed the speakers to demonstrate their (and it's) clarity the entire time.
Teaming up drivers with incredibly low distortion with an amp that has similar traits, was, well, like nothing I've heard.
And talk about headroom, I doubt we even got above 1/4 power, maybe on large dynamic peaks and swings, but that's what it's there for.
I'm sure the 500w Hypex amps take any strain at all off the amp, and it's all the better for it.
I'll post a bit more about amps tomorrow when I'm on a keyboard and not a phone 👍
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Feb 1, 2023 21:37:30 GMT
edward From a technical/measurements perspective the Vaders/CNO4s are very easy to drive when semi active (the ones I have). The 12" bass drivers are driven by 2 x 500W plate amps and the off board amplifier drives the top enclosure. The top enclosure is an easy load and can easily be driven by many Valve and Solid state amplifiers. Impedance easurements: www.troelsgravesen.dk/CNO-4.htm#MEASUREMENTS Wow you could drive them with a 20 watt Sanyo! Sell the expensive amps to offset the cost of the speakers. Ideal for valve amps too. Putting a valve amp on these speakers would be like putting tractor tyres on a F1 car though. 😂
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Post by Arke on Feb 1, 2023 23:46:54 GMT
Wow you could drive them with a 20 watt Sanyo! Sell the expensive amps to offset the cost of the speakers. Ideal for valve amps too. Putting a valve amp on these speakers would be like putting tractor tyres on a F1 car though. 😂 I don't know... I'd love to have an F1 car to drive off road! 😀 If anything these speakers are very suitable for a valve amp (should people prefer that sound) as they have the grip and control of class D below around 100Hz. They give you the option to 'choose you poison' for the upper bass, mid and highs.
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Post by firebottle on Feb 2, 2023 7:38:25 GMT
Would be great to try driving them with my OuTLaw OTL valve amp. What impedance are they Jason? 4 ohm not so good, 8 ohm OK.
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optical
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Post by optical on Feb 2, 2023 7:53:06 GMT
Really interesting Chris. Really pleased for you that you have found your 'reference' speakers. I guess you will just have to be a patient grasshopper for your speakers to be built. Any eta? A key takeaway from your (simply brilliant) writing is positioning of speakers and how 'EVERYTHING snapped into focus' when you did a small change. This was where previously the 'music was there and it sounded okay, but it was nothing special'. Did you try driving the Arkes with anything other than the 686? Asking for a friend. E So to answer your question Edward, the short answer is no I'm afraid, however, I will explain as for why we didn't try any other amps. Because the 686 is 'bridge tied' at the outputs, you cannot run stereo sub's directly from the +/- binding posts, the ground (-) needs to run to the chassis. So due to the fact that the bass units of the Vaders run on a high level input and are active, this has to be wired in the same way as a subwoofer would. This entails running a wire from the amplifier chassis to the Vader's negative terminal of the hypex amps signal inputs. Fairly simple once you get it setup but I was a bit reluctant to mess about with it too much after we got it dialled in. When all the room measurements and tweaking was done we just got on with listening to the music for as long as possible. Another reason I didn't want to upset the reference too much was because, well, that's what it was, a reference. I knew the amp I would be partnering with them (at least at first) would be the 686, so I wanted to get as long as possible with it (and them). I know a bit silly of me not to try, after I'd gotten quite excited by the prospect of trying them with a few different amps, but perhaps that's more of an experiment for another time, most likely when I physically own them and I can really take my time over an evaluation. Would they have sounded better/worse/different with other amps? Who knows, due to their design, as Jason and others have said, you should be able to run them with pretty much anything. I certainly wouldn't be ruling out valve amps completely, especially very well designed ones (non mushy/slow etc), because I have heard some (albeit very few) valve amps that do not seem to exhibit that 'mellowing of all' effect. No, they still struggle with their speed of presentation, so aren't as razor sharp on details/leading edges etc, but perhaps with this new reference of speed/clarity/resolution that the Vaders clearly provide, it could be an excellent match. Like I say, experimentation likely to come in due course, but if it doesn't I won't be disappointed, because the 686 has already excelled with them (it literally never lets me down).
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Arke
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Post by Arke on Feb 2, 2023 8:33:45 GMT
Would be great to try driving them with my OuTLaw OTL valve amp. What impedance are they Jason? 4 ohm not so good, 8 ohm OK. Scroll down in this link Alan: www.troelsgravesen.dk/CNO-4.htm#MEASUREMENTSImpedance and phase for top enclosure (8" mid/bass, 6" mid/bass, tweeter). Minimum impedance is 4ohms. I would class this as a relatively easy load. Phase angle is generally good (for Valve amps) in regions of lower impedance.
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Post by mikeyb on Feb 2, 2023 9:31:19 GMT
"My speakers are fine, my speakers are fine, my speakers are fine"
I say to myself with a damp brow 😂
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Post by stevew on Feb 2, 2023 10:13:06 GMT
"My speakers are fine, my speakers are fine, my speakers are fine" I say to myself with a damp brow 😂 Don’t listen to Ekta’s… don’t listen to Ekta’s..
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Post by mikeyb on Feb 2, 2023 11:35:03 GMT
"My speakers are fine, my speakers are fine, my speakers are fine" I say to myself with a damp brow 😂 Don’t listen to Ekta’s… don’t listen to Ekta’s.. 😂
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Feb 2, 2023 22:01:19 GMT
Alan's suggestion of trying an OTL, especially his OuTLaw, wouldn't be a bad listen actually.
One of, in fact only one of two valve amps I have heard that can actually sound very linear, very clean and very resolving. I am sure there must be more, but they haven't graced my presence lol.
However, I doubt you wouldn't hear the issues with them via Vader's. I certainly wouldn't rely on my previous positive experience with any piece of equipment I have heard, because since adding the Etka to the system, it's like I am finally able to hear what stuff really sounds like.
It makes me kind of want to re-evaluate everything I have ever tried.
In fact, no, it doesn't lol
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Post by macca on Feb 3, 2023 7:11:14 GMT
the main reason valve amps can sound a bit soft or warm is because they have output transformers so their frequency response is changed by the load the speaker presents.
So no surprise that an OTL will sound more linear. But these Vaders are such a benign load I doubt they will have much of any impact on the sound of the amplifier.
I don't think they will be a good choice of speaker for people who prefer to listen to the sound of the equipment rather than the sound of the music
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optical
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Post by optical on Feb 3, 2023 7:52:35 GMT
I don't think they will be a good choice of speaker for people who prefer to listen to the sound of the equipment rather than the sound of the music Well at times I guess I fall into both categories there and while the Vader's do certainly excel and simply reproduce the music as just that, there's no doubt they also allow you to hear exactly what's good (and bad) upstream from them. For example during listening to vinyl, on the occasional high frequency vocal/cymbal, it could (very slightly) be portrayed with a slight brightness or edge to it . . . . we knew this was very unlikely to be the speaker, given the quality of the drivers, coupled with their good frequency plot (in room, no nasty peaks etc), nor the recording (as a lot of them were ones we both knew well). What it almost certainly was, was the AT OC9 XEN cartridge on my SP10. It wasn't unpleasant by any means and on the rest of the frequency range it absolutely excelled, it did however, show a small lack of refinement up top, at least compared to mid-high end cartridges. It is around £300 after all. Okay that's not cheap but for an MC in a system that this is now approaching, it could be easily classed as it's weakest part/bottleneck. This argument has weight added to it when Jason has played the same tracks on his system at home with the Vaders (with a much MUCH better cartridge). Without these speakers I'm not sure it would have been so apparent, I could be wrong but I certainly think they helped to 'expose' any shortcomings upstream of them. Having said that I was also blown away by how well the speakers 'resolved' average and even poor recordings. They have a few tricks up their sleeves, not least their ability to be both resolving and forgiving (no I have no idea how a speaker can possibly do that) is uncanny. To be honest these posts are difficult becasue I don't want things to look like I'm just bigging things up, but at the same time whatever I write really can't do them justice.
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Arke
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Post by Arke on Feb 3, 2023 8:23:06 GMT
I am currently using a highly modified Musical Fidelity a3.2cr power amp for the Vader's top enclosure. I have listened to the Vaders at Chris's with the 686 and did I prefer one over the other....?
Well, Chris has an SP10/RB300 and AT cart. I have a Rega RP10/RB2000 (soon to become an SP10) and Cadenza black. Whilst accepting the room and sources were different, I certainly didn't feel either power amp choice was lacking with the Vaders. I preferred some of my (very well known) records on Chris's and some on mine. This obviously wasn't a scientific AB, but neither setup and amp choice spoilt my enjoyment of the music - not one bit!
Once my final music room is sorted I shall be auditioning various amps for the Vader's top enclosures including valve amps. I am perhaps in the minority as I prefer the sound of the vinyl to digital. I have not preferred the sound of digital in any system yet, but perhaps I have only heard poor digital? I am sure vinyl has more 'issues' but that hasn't stopped me preferring it until now.
I have heard a 686 in direct comparison to my MF amp on my old Ektas. I preferred the 686 on the Ektas no question. It mainly had way more grip and control, especially on the bass drivers of the Ektas. The Ektas are not an easy load and sound better and better as the amplifier grip increases. The Ekta bass drivers XO at 800Hz so any amp with fantastic grip has a profound effect on the bass and a large proportion of the midrange. Therefore, the 686 had a profound effect on the bass and midrange, and as many know, this also improves everything through the entire frequency spectrum.
I'm sure the 686 will be better on the Vaders too, but I not sure it will matter (to me) as much. I will be sure to try and report back at some point. I will also be trying valve amps and can't wait!
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Feb 3, 2023 12:49:39 GMT
Regardless of load etc, i would still want to ensure i was getting everything i could out of those speakers. So an amp with ultralow distortion would have to be a priority for me.
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Post by macca on Feb 4, 2023 13:04:40 GMT
Regardless of load etc, i would still want to ensure i was getting everything i could out of those speakers. So an amp with ultralow distortion would have to be a priority for me. Yeah makes sense to have distortion and noise as low as possible right through the chain, it's just best practice. I still like the idea of running them off some little 1980s Fisher or Sanyo job though. Just for the shock value. Hanging them off an Amstrad midi system might be going an amp too far though...
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Post by jandl100 on Feb 4, 2023 13:30:53 GMT
Hmm, this sounds kind of like the Japanese "distortion wars" of the 1970s and 80s - Japanese amplifier makers claiming ever lower distortion figures to prove theirs was the best. The challenge was to get the most zeros after the decimal point. They usually sounded cr#p. Some here are probably too young to remember.
Below a not too low level I think amplifier distortion is irrelevant compared to what occurs in the rest of the system.
There's far more to how an amplifier sounds than that. Or so my ears tell me.
I should think that the type of sonic control being discussed has more to do with damping factor and power supply stiffness, among other factors probably, than ultra low distortion.
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Post by robbiegong on Feb 4, 2023 14:58:25 GMT
Regardless of load etc, i would still want to ensure i was getting everything i could out of those speakers. So an amp with ultralow distortion would have to be a priority for me. Yeah makes sense to have distortion and noise as low as possible right through the chain, it's just best practice.I still like the idea of running them off some little 1980s Fisher or Sanyo job though. Just for the shock value. Hanging them off an Amstrad midi system might be going an amp too far though... Couldnt agree with this more, not just in the context of this thread, but hi-fidelity overall. It's something I learned very late along the journey, but has been a revelation in terms of sq, genuinely taking things to the next level and realising more of the recorded music. Not only that, but coupled with the obvious enjoyment of the music, a real appreciation of your kits ability to do it's job properly, allowing the music to star the show, as I like to put it
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Arke
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Post by Arke on Feb 4, 2023 16:26:06 GMT
Regardless of load etc, i would still want to ensure i was getting everything i could out of those speakers. So an amp with ultralow distortion would have to be a priority for me. I have to concur. Every time one of my components has changed to a lower distortion one the SQ improvement has been undeniable.
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Post by macca on Feb 4, 2023 17:16:53 GMT
Hmm, this sounds kind of like the Japanese "distortion wars" of the 1970s and 80s - Japanese amplifier makers claiming ever lower distortion figures to prove theirs was the best. The challenge was to get the most zeros after the decimal point. They usually sounded cr#p. Some here are probably too young to remember. Below a not too low level I think amplifier distortion is irrelevant compared to what occurs in the rest of the system. There's far more to how an amplifier sounds than that. Or so my ears tell me. I should think that the type of sonic control being discussed has more to do with damping factor and power supply stiffness, among other factors probably, than ultra low distortion. I think the Japanese amp thing is an audiophile myth based on them using those amps with unsuitable speakers later on in the 1980s and 1990s. I've owned a few and the load has a huge effect on SQ But you can see how with a poor match someone finds that the amp sounds crap or boring, and concludes that this is due to the very low distortion 'killing the music'. Then they buy a Naim lol. Otherwise I agree.
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Post by Pigmy Pony on Feb 5, 2023 10:35:53 GMT
Just how high do distortion figures have to be before it becomes inacceptable? My amp's spec quotes a figure of 0.01% THD. Now that's sort of one in a thousand, which seems pretty low to me, but apparently not, compared to say, the 686. Oli needn't reply to this as I'm told he has hearing like a bat, and can tell the sex of a camel just by the sound of its farts from half a mile away Whereas my hearing couldn't tell the difference between Rick Astley, and a Kylie Minogue 45 played back at 33rpm.
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Post by macca on Feb 5, 2023 10:46:50 GMT
Just how high do distortion figures have to be before it becomes inacceptable? My amp's spec quotes a figure of 0.01% THD. Now that's sort of one in a thousand, which seems pretty low to me, but apparently not, compared to say, the 686. Oli needn't reply to this as I'm told he has hearing like a bat, and can tell the sex of a camel just by the sound of its farts from half a mile away Whereas my hearing couldn't tell the difference between Rick Astley, and a Kylie Minogue 45 played back at 33rpm. It's not a simple answer I'm afraid. Rule of the thumb is less than 0.1% THD will be inaudible, But - THD is usually quoted at 1Khz (which makes sense as this is in the middle of the frequency range that we are most sensitive to) but distortion could be higher or lower at other frequencies. Also it will vary with level. Then when you consider a speaker may have up to 10% distortion in the low frequencies it all starts to look a bit academic. Nevertheless some say that higher levels of high order harmonic distortion will sound bad if not masked by low order harmonic distortion. So you have to look at the distortion spectrum not just the headline figure. There's not much in the way of listening tests on distortion effects so really that is still up in the air. Short answer is your amplifier almost certainly does not have any audible distortion, there are better things to worry about.
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Post by Pigmy Pony on Feb 5, 2023 11:19:29 GMT
Just how high do distortion figures have to be before it becomes inacceptable? My amp's spec quotes a figure of 0.01% THD. Now that's sort of one in a thousand, which seems pretty low to me, but apparently not, compared to say, the 686. Oli needn't reply to this as I'm told he has hearing like a bat, and can tell the sex of a camel just by the sound of its farts from half a mile away Whereas my hearing couldn't tell the difference between Rick Astley, and a Kylie Minogue 45 played back at 33rpm. It's not a simple answer I'm afraid. Rule of the thumb is less than 0.1% THD will be inaudible, But - THD is usually quoted at 1Khz (which makes sense as this is in the middle of the frequency range that we are most sensitive to) but distortion could be higher or lower at other frequencies. Also it will vary with level. Then when you consider a speaker may have up to 10% distortion in the low frequencies it all starts to look a bit academic. Nevertheless some say that higher levels of high order harmonic distortion will sound bad if not masked by low order harmonic distortion. So you have to look at the distortion spectrum not just the headline figure. There's not much in the way of listening tests on distortion effects so really that is still up in the air. Short answer is your amplifier almost certainly does not have any audible distortion, there are better things to worry about. Exactly what I was thinking No seriously, it makes me think that manufacturers' published figures can be 'cherry picked' in order to show their product in its best light. It would make sense to me to look at independently published measurements as I think you have said in previous posts, in order to sort the wheat from the chaff, as it were, before auditioning. Save a bit of leg work.
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Feb 5, 2023 11:42:12 GMT
Just how high do distortion figures have to be before it becomes inacceptable? My amp's spec quotes a figure of 0.01% THD. Now that's sort of one in a thousand, which seems pretty low to me, but apparently not, compared to say, the 686. Oli needn't reply to this as I'm told he has hearing like a bat, and can tell the sex of a camel just by the sound of its farts from half a mile away Whereas my hearing couldn't tell the difference between Rick Astley, and a Kylie Minogue 45 played back at 33rpm. I wanted to answer......
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Post by macca on Feb 5, 2023 11:51:44 GMT
Just how high do distortion figures have to be before it becomes inacceptable? My amp's spec quotes a figure of 0.01% THD. Now that's sort of one in a thousand, which seems pretty low to me, but apparently not, compared to say, the 686. Oli needn't reply to this as I'm told he has hearing like a bat, and can tell the sex of a camel just by the sound of its farts from half a mile away Whereas my hearing couldn't tell the difference between Rick Astley, and a Kylie Minogue 45 played back at 33rpm. I wanted to answer...... sorry, replies from cloth-ears only are allowed.
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Feb 5, 2023 11:52:34 GMT
Let me know what you got. I did this on my phone with a pair of Sennheiser earphones.
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