Arke
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Post by Arke on Apr 6, 2023 19:48:57 GMT
You cannot take any barometer of performance from the Ekta when considering the Vaders. It pains me to say this, but the Etka sound like toy speakers compared to the Vaders/CNO-4. They are in an entirely alternate universe performance wise and I can say wholeheartedly that it broke my heart when I heard them. They are VERY special speakers Fair enough. The presentation of my MBL based system is very different to Alan's Ekta system. What was immediately noticeable on the return to my own system was the 3D palpability and solidity of the imaging. Also, to be fair, the MBLs are quite literally my dream speakers. They just latch on to me in a very 'form fitting' way that any other speaker is going to struggle to match, not because they aren't as good but just because they are different. .... But that's probably what Dave's brother thought about his Estalons! I've heard some smaller MBLs at a show and can understand completely about the difference in presentation. They are just fundamentally very different (Ektas and yours). The Vaders won't give you the MBL presentation, but on a decent system (as I heard at Mark's and Dave's) they do dissappear and soundstage and imaging are breathtaking. On decent recordings the physical boundaries constraining their listening room were no longer aurally present. A decent recording in a large venue really can put you in a large venue (aurally) with that system and the Vaders.
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Arke
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Post by Arke on Apr 6, 2023 19:54:48 GMT
Thank you! Although most of the SQ is down to Troels, I have just packaged it up in a pretty box! There are only 2 pairs in the UK atm and both are at mine in the Peak District. One of those pairs will be going to Surrey in mid April (but won't be fully run in). The next pair is going to Grimsby late 2023/early 2024. What did you think of the Ektas? I'd imagine a very different presentation to yours? The Ektas and Vaders are very different in presentation again. You cannot take any barometer of performance from the Ekta when considering the Vaders. It pains me to say this, but the Etka sound like toy speakers compared to the Vaders/CNO-4. They are in an entirely alternate universe performance wise and I can say wholeheartedly that it broke my heart when I heard them. They are VERY special speakers Oh Oli... You've let the cat out of the bag 😂😉. TBF, the Vaders are a very different price point (the Vader/CNO4 parts cost 2.5 times the Ekta parts). It is actually reassuring (from my point of view) that a speaker costing 2.5 to 3 times more is actually much better.
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Apr 6, 2023 19:59:33 GMT
You cannot take any barometer of performance from the Ekta when considering the Vaders. It pains me to say this, but the Etka sound like toy speakers compared to the Vaders/CNO-4. They are in an entirely alternate universe performance wise and I can say wholeheartedly that it broke my heart when I heard them. They are VERY special speakers Fair enough. The presentation of my MBL based system is very different to Alan's Ekta system. What was immediately noticeable on the return to my own system was the 3D palpability and solidity of the imaging. Also, to be fair, the MBLs are quite literally my dream speakers. They just latch on to me in a very 'form fitting' way that any other speaker is going to struggle to match, not because they aren't as good but just because they are different. .... But that's probably what Dave's brother thought about his Estalons! I think Alan has them set the same as me now, which is flat. Those speakers of yours are very different to the Ekta so it's no surprise. What I will say is that I genuinely don't think you can spend better than the Ekta in their price range. I sincerely don't.
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optical
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Post by optical on Apr 6, 2023 20:11:51 GMT
Fair enough. The presentation of my MBL based system is very different to Alan's Ekta system. What was immediately noticeable on the return to my own system was the 3D palpability and solidity of the imaging. Also, to be fair, the MBLs are quite literally my dream speakers. They just latch on to me in a very 'form fitting' way that any other speaker is going to struggle to match, not because they aren't as good but just because they are different. .... But that's probably what Dave's brother thought about his Estalons! I think Alan has them set the same as me now, which is flat. Those speakers of yours are very different to the Ekta so it's no surprise. What I will say is that I genuinely don't think you can spend better than the Ekta in their price range. I sincerely don't. What you want is value represented at every step up in price, with that comes the proportional step in performance. Having heard both these speakers for a good few hours (more time with the Vader's) I would say they both do this with a refreshing linearity of predictable performance level. Takes the guessing out of how much you have to spend to get a significant increase in performance. I'm sure the rest of the designs meet other price points/criteria just as predictably.
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Apr 6, 2023 20:12:47 GMT
You cannot take any barometer of performance from the Ekta when considering the Vaders. It pains me to say this, but the Etka sound like toy speakers compared to the Vaders/CNO-4. They are in an entirely alternate universe performance wise and I can say wholeheartedly that it broke my heart when I heard them. They are VERY special speakers Oh Oli... You've let the cat out of the bag 😂😉. TBF, the Vaders are a very different price point (the Vader/CNO4 parts cost 2.5 times the Ekta parts). It is actually reassuring (from my point of view) that a speaker costing 2.5 to 3 times more is actually much better. I say this with all the best intentions: IF you had £10-15k to spend on speakers, you would expect them to be significantly better than a pair of £5-7k speakers. In the commercial realm, that difference may not be worth that money and we start hearing phrases like "diminishing returns" What needs to be understood is that we are not playing by the commercial world's rules. The Ekta could hang with speakers around £10-12k IMHO. The Vaders are taking out speakers that cost £40k in their current production run..... according to the experience shared in this forum. That has to be reported accurately, and I think as soon as audiophiles realise how much performance you can get for the money in this area of Hifi....you will be run off your feet. So you should be too.
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Arke
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Post by Arke on Apr 6, 2023 20:26:40 GMT
Thanks for the endorsement Oli.
You're right. Spending twice as much in the Bespoke (ARKE) world probably equates to spending 4-5 times as much in the retail world. With retail speakers about 10-15% of the rrp goes on parts (driver, wiring, XOs) and cabinets. With bespoke speakers about 50% goes on the parts and cabinet materials.
Just for clarity: I believe the Estelon XBs currently cost around £26k new with a UK retailer. I believe the Estelon XB mkIIs with revised XOs and wiring cost about 40k euros - I've not seen the mkIIs listed in the UK. I believe Mark and Dave have Auditioned speakers ranging from £35k-£95k. I believe the £95k speakers were rather special! Which is reassuring!
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Apr 6, 2023 20:32:08 GMT
Thanks for the endorsement Oli. You're right. Spending twice as much in the Bespoke (ARKE) world probably equates to spending 4-5 times as much in the retail world. With retail speakers about 10-15% of the rrp goes on parts (driver, wiring, XOs) and cabinets. With bespoke speakers about 50% goes on the parts and cabinet materials. Just for clarity: I believe Mark's Estelon XBs cost around £26k new with a UK retailer. I believe the Estelon XB mkIIs with revised XOs and wiring cost about 40k euros - I've not seen the mkIIs listed in the UK. Ah, ok...costs are just for dramatic effect, but you get an idea
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Post by antonio on Apr 7, 2023 4:46:01 GMT
One pair of Vaders have been ordered. Well done, Jason. Will the Vaders directly replace the Estalons? Will you be asking for them to be made in wibbly-wobbly shaped cabinets? So, where's the nearest pair of Vaders to me? (I heard Alan's Ektas a week or so ago). The Vaders wil replace the Estalons, and no they will not be as sexy looking. They will be the same shape as Jason's pair, colour wise, most probably the same again, although we haven't discussed that with Jason. They will certainly sound different to your MBL's, they were very different to the Estelons.
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Post by macca on Apr 7, 2023 7:13:36 GMT
Oh Oli... You've let the cat out of the bag 😂😉. TBF, the Vaders are a very different price point (the Vader/CNO4 parts cost 2.5 times the Ekta parts). It is actually reassuring (from my point of view) that a speaker costing 2.5 to 3 times more is actually much better. I say this with all the best intentions: IF you had £10-15k to spend on speakers, you would expect them to be significantly better than a pair of £5-7k speakers. In the commercial realm, that difference may not be worth that money and we start hearing phrases like "diminishing returns" What needs to be understood is that we are not playing by the commercial world's rules. The Ekta could hang with speakers around £10-12k IMHO. The Vaders are taking out speakers that cost £40k in their current production run..... according to the experience shared in this forum. That has to be reported accurately, and I think as soon as audiophiles realise how much performance you can get for the money in this area of Hifi....you will be run off your feet. So you should be too. I wouldn't go nuts, there are a lot of very over-priced high end speakers on the market that rely on bullshit reviews and a re-assuring high price-tag to make the mug punter think he is getting an exclusive sound. I've had a listen to a lot of them and you're not getting anything special. The show where the JBL 4365 were one of the cheapest speakers on demo (£10K) and they were so much better than anything else there (some were 100K) tthat it wasn't funny. Kii3 at £16K (possibly cheaper) also walk over most others - and you get the amps and DACs included in that price. There's probably a few others. High end audio is, in general, a total rip-off aimed at the What-Hifi punters who think price equals performance because they've been reading that in the mags all their lives. Jason's speakers are good value because he's keeping his margins low - the opposite approach. Believe me, many people will reject them as an option out of hand because they are too cheap.
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Apr 7, 2023 7:32:01 GMT
I say this with all the best intentions: IF you had £10-15k to spend on speakers, you would expect them to be significantly better than a pair of £5-7k speakers. In the commercial realm, that difference may not be worth that money and we start hearing phrases like "diminishing returns" What needs to be understood is that we are not playing by the commercial world's rules. The Ekta could hang with speakers around £10-12k IMHO. The Vaders are taking out speakers that cost £40k in their current production run..... according to the experience shared in this forum. That has to be reported accurately, and I think as soon as audiophiles realise how much performance you can get for the money in this area of Hifi....you will be run off your feet. So you should be too. I wouldn't go nuts, there are a lot of very over-priced high end speakers on the market that rely on bullshit reviews and a re-assuring high price-tag to make the mug punter think he is getting an exclusive sound. I've had a listen to a lot of them and you're not getting anything special. The show where the JBL 4365 were one of the cheapest speakers on demo (£10K) and they were so much better than anything else there (some were 100K) tthat it wasn't funny. Kii3 at £16K (possibly cheaper) also walk over most others - and you get the amps and DACs included in that price. There's probably a few others. High end audio is, in general, a total rip-off aimed at the What-Hifi punters who think price equals performance because they've been reading that in the mags all their lives. Jason's speakers are good value because he's keeping his margins low - the opposite approach. Believe me, many people will reject them as an option out of hand because they are too cheap. If price is the reason they buy something, they obviously don't understand enough about what they are buying in the first place!
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Post by macca on Apr 7, 2023 8:10:59 GMT
I wouldn't go nuts, there are a lot of very over-priced high end speakers on the market that rely on bullshit reviews and a re-assuring high price-tag to make the mug punter think he is getting an exclusive sound. I've had a listen to a lot of them and you're not getting anything special. The show where the JBL 4365 were one of the cheapest speakers on demo (£10K) and they were so much better than anything else there (some were 100K) tthat it wasn't funny. Kii3 at £16K (possibly cheaper) also walk over most others - and you get the amps and DACs included in that price. There's probably a few others. High end audio is, in general, a total rip-off aimed at the What-Hifi punters who think price equals performance because they've been reading that in the mags all their lives. Jason's speakers are good value because he's keeping his margins low - the opposite approach. Believe me, many people will reject them as an option out of hand because they are too cheap. If price is the reason they buy something, they obviously don't understand enough about what they are buying in the first place! Exactly. If most people possessed real knowledge about how audio replay works then high end/ high price equipment and accessories would not exist. Neither would the You Tube reviewers like Hans and Darko, the magazines, and a lot of the forums!
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Post by macca on Apr 7, 2023 8:18:40 GMT
anyway my point was this is not about DIY vs Commercial. DIY is when you knock it up yourself. What Jason is offering is a commercial product at lower margins than is typically the case in the industry. No dealer or distributor to pay, and very low overheads.
if he went into volume production that would all have to change.
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Arke
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Post by Arke on Apr 7, 2023 8:28:21 GMT
I say this with all the best intentions: IF you had £10-15k to spend on speakers, you would expect them to be significantly better than a pair of £5-7k speakers. In the commercial realm, that difference may not be worth that money and we start hearing phrases like "diminishing returns" What needs to be understood is that we are not playing by the commercial world's rules. The Ekta could hang with speakers around £10-12k IMHO. The Vaders are taking out speakers that cost £40k in their current production run..... according to the experience shared in this forum. That has to be reported accurately, and I think as soon as audiophiles realise how much performance you can get for the money in this area of Hifi....you will be run off your feet. So you should be too. I wouldn't go nuts, there are a lot of very over-priced high end speakers on the market that rely on bullshit reviews and a re-assuring high price-tag to make the mug punter think he is getting an exclusive sound. I've had a listen to a lot of them and you're not getting anything special. The show where the JBL 4365 were one of the cheapest speakers on demo (£10K) and they were so much better than anything else there (some were 100K) tthat it wasn't funny. Kii3 at £16K (possibly cheaper) also walk over most others - and you get the amps and DACs included in that price. There's probably a few others. High end audio is, in general, a total rip-off aimed at the What-Hifi punters who think price equals performance because they've been reading that in the mags all their lives. Jason's speakers are good value because he's keeping his margins low - the opposite approach. Believe me, many people will reject them as an option out of hand because they are too cheap. It becomes so subjective, especially with speakers. It is certainly a minefield and IMO very important to home demo speakers if possible. Having spent the day with Mark and David I am not convinced the Kii3 sound is their preference. I have heard the Kii3s and the JBLs and neither are for me either. It's not my place to tell people what sound they do and don't like, so can completely respect that many people do love the Kiis and JBL. I'm sure the Vader's sound won't be for everyone either. I believe Mark and David have spent some time auditioning a lot of speakers and have a good handle on what they like. I'm sure Dave can comment further.
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Post by antonio on Apr 7, 2023 8:41:54 GMT
Sure can, out of the ten speakers we heard at demo's, the Kii3 were by far the worst, turning them off within a few seconds. macca Seriously go and listen to a quality speaker, Arke Vaders, Estelons, YG acoustics, Stenheims and then the Kii's, you would be staggered how unrefined the Kii's are.
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Post by macca on Apr 7, 2023 8:42:19 GMT
I wouldn't go nuts, there are a lot of very over-priced high end speakers on the market that rely on bullshit reviews and a re-assuring high price-tag to make the mug punter think he is getting an exclusive sound. I've had a listen to a lot of them and you're not getting anything special. The show where the JBL 4365 were one of the cheapest speakers on demo (£10K) and they were so much better than anything else there (some were 100K) tthat it wasn't funny. Kii3 at £16K (possibly cheaper) also walk over most others - and you get the amps and DACs included in that price. There's probably a few others. High end audio is, in general, a total rip-off aimed at the What-Hifi punters who think price equals performance because they've been reading that in the mags all their lives. Jason's speakers are good value because he's keeping his margins low - the opposite approach. Believe me, many people will reject them as an option out of hand because they are too cheap. It becomes so subjective, especially with speakers. It is certainly a minefield and IMO very important to home demo speakers if possible. Having spent the day with Mark and David I am not convinced the Kii3 sound is their preference. I have heard the Kii3s and the JBLs and neither are for me either. It's not my place to tell people what sound they do and don't like, so can completely respect that many people do love the Kiis and JBL. I'm sure the Vader's sound won't be for everyone either. I believe Mark and David have spent some time auditioning a lot of speakers and have a good handle on what they like. I'm sure Dave can comment further. I know Dave did not like the Kii3, I know people who were not keen on the JBL too. We're not all chasing the same thing. For example if someone likes Audionote speakers then they are not likely to be keen on the JBL or the Kii3 or your offerings either. But I wasn't commenting on personal preference I was pointing out the reason why your speakers offer good value for money compared to many others and it isn't because they are DIY, because they're not DIY.
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Post by macca on Apr 7, 2023 8:45:54 GMT
Sure can, out of the ten speakers we heard at demo's, the Kii3 were by far the worst, turning them off within a few seconds. macca Seriously go and listen to a quality speaker, Arke Vaders, Estelons, YG acoustics, Stenheims and then the Kii's, you would be staggered how unrefined the Kii's are. I've had two separate auditions of the Kii3 I did not think they were unrefined, quite the opposite. I like a refined sound. I reckon I have heard more high-end speakers than most here, also I understand how to relate measurements to sound quality - and value for money. I was designing speakers thirty years ago. It's not my first rodeo
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Arke
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Post by Arke on Apr 7, 2023 8:53:15 GMT
Sure can, out of the ten speakers we heard at demo's, the Kii3 were by far the worst, turning them off within a few seconds. macca Seriously go and listen to a quality speaker, Arke Vaders, Estelons, YG acoustics, Stenheims and then the Kii's, you would be staggered how unrefined the Kii's are. I've had two separate auditions of the Kii3 I did not think they were unrefined, quite the opposite. I like a refined sound. I reckon I have heard more high-end speakers than most here, also I understand how to relate measurements to sound quality - and value for money. I was designing speakers thirty years ago. It's not my first rodeo I am sure you have very experienced and discerning ears Martins. I Just think we all like different flavours.
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Post by antonio on Apr 7, 2023 8:58:37 GMT
macca You keep telling us "it's not your first rodeo", but your impression of refined completely differs from that of me and my brother, Mike from Studio A/V and Jason. Maybe the Kii's come across ok in isolation, but when played side by side with a quality speaker you can easily tell the difference.
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Post by karma67 on Apr 7, 2023 9:34:45 GMT
here we go,another 'going round in circles' thread. cant we all just except we all have different tastes?
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Apr 7, 2023 10:47:40 GMT
Yeah, spot on. Lets not drop into the Who's right and wrong argument etc.
I know Macca was a big fan of the Kii3 and there are reviews out there supporting both sides of the opinions being shared here, so obviously there is something in both points!
I wouldn't mind a listen to a pair in the same room as the Vaders. I think that would be an eyeopener. Anyone got a pair? lol
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Post by pete on Apr 7, 2023 10:57:16 GMT
I’m really enjoying this Vader and Ekta talk.
Must say that when I heard Oli’s Ektas they were a revelation as what musical enjoyment a pair of boxes could provide.
So much of a revelation that it encouraged me to speak to Jason about a pair of speakers for my system.
So I have taken a different route. As impressed as I was with the Ektas I fancied something that could give a bit more bass slam and extension. I didn’t want to go down the route of much bigger speakers than I have, so, with Jason’s help, decided on a pair of 851s. I’m guessing they will fit somewhere between the Ektas and Vaders sound wise. Time will tell.
Looking forward to receiving them, getting some listening in and sharing thoughts 👍
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Post by bencat on Apr 7, 2023 11:41:34 GMT
Pete nice to see you have looked at doing something different to suit what you are looking for . This is ideally what a bespoke payday gives you . Jason seems committed to talking and more important listening to each of his customers and trying to make their dream speaker come true . This does not make any of the models better or worse than the others it just makes a model right for that user . Not familiar with the 851 so will have to go and have a look at what it is . Hope it is everything you hope for and more .
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Post by pete on Apr 7, 2023 12:44:02 GMT
Pete nice to see you have looked at doing something different to suit what you are looking for . This is ideally what a bespoke payday gives you . Jason seems committed to talking and more important listening to each of his customers and trying to make their dream speaker come true . This does not make any of the models better or worse than the others it just makes a model right for that user . Not familiar with the 851 so will have to go and have a look at what it is . Hope it is everything you hope for and more . Thanks, they seem like the perfect match for me: www.troelsgravesen.dk/Revelator-851.htm
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Post by robbiegong on Apr 7, 2023 12:52:59 GMT
Nice one Pete, they do look great and more importantly likely sound it too - approx' what would something like this cost Pete / Jason ? Not that I'm in the game for new speakers but good to know re: future and thinking ahead.
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Arke
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Post by Arke on Apr 7, 2023 13:11:45 GMT
Nice one Pete, they do look great and more importantly likely sound it too - approx' what would something like this cost Pete / Jason ? Not that I'm in the game for new speakers but good to know re: future and thinking ahead. Due to house renovation, I am not building any more speakers until late 2023/early 2024. Prices are difficult to pin down as it depends on spec (wiring, XOs, finish etc.) and component prices. For example, Vader parts (only) have increased by £800 in 6 months. Drivers, XO parts and timber are increasing fast. This is very vague but depending on finished spec and options Approx. Prices are: Ektas £4—5k maybe less if the simple 'Troels' cabinet. 851s £5.5-6k Vaders/CNO4s £8—12k All kits have the option of upgraded caps, pc ccc wiring, upgraded binding posts etc. The 851s have tweeter options (one is Beryllium) and the Vaders vary in price alot as my facetted cabinets are much more pricey than a standard truncated pyramid. Hope that helps a little.
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Post by robbiegong on Apr 7, 2023 13:14:00 GMT
Nice one Pete, they do look great and more importantly likely sound it too - approx' what would something like this cost Pete / Jason ? Not that I'm in the game for new speakers but good to know re: future and thinking ahead. Due to house renovation, I am not building any more speakers until late 2023/early 2024. Prices are difficult to pin down as it depends on spec (wiring, XOs, finish etc.) and component prices. For example, Vader parts (only) have increased by £800 in 6 months. Drivers, XO parts and timber are increasing fast. This is very vague but depending on finished spec and options Approx. Prices are: Ektas £4—5k maybe less if the simple 'Troels' cabinet. 851s £5.5-6k Vaders/CNO4s £8—12k All kits have the option of upgraded caps. The 851s have tweeter options (one is Beryllium) and the Vaders vary in price alot as my facetted cabinets are much more pricey than a standard truncated pyramid. Hope that helps a little. Thank you Jason, much appreciated - have a happy Easter, bank hol.
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Post by bencat on Apr 7, 2023 13:21:23 GMT
In the spirit of actually doing what i posted i have now read through the full pages on the 851,s on the TG site and understand a little more about the ideas behind this speaker . I have to agree with TG that being able to get something really special out of a smaller enclosure is a great plus . As he says and I have to agree in lots of cases and this is very true for the UK we have smaller rooms than would be ideal for us to listen in . If we were all rich then we could just buy a better house with a bigger and better listening room but in most cases this is just not on . While I would not really describe the 851,s as small and there were no pictures along side Ektas and Vader,s I presume they are a little bit smaller but have due to the bass drivers enhanced bass output . I am sure they will be fantastic when finished just wish I had loads of surplus income that I could afford to try and get something made that I have always wanted . Sadly pension income is fixed and nothing like as much as I had hoped when I was forty but thats life . Good thing is the Quads are now singing so beautifully in my music room that I just do not care , love reading about these speakers and others views but will have to content myself with just getting to hear a pair at some stage .
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Arke
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Post by Arke on Apr 7, 2023 15:08:20 GMT
In the spirit of actually doing what i posted i have now read through the full pages on the 851,s on the TG site and understand a little more about the ideas behind this speaker . I have to agree with TG that being able to get something really special out of a smaller enclosure is a great plus . As he says and I have to agree in lots of cases and this is very true for the UK we have smaller rooms than would be ideal for us to listen in . If we were all rich then we could just buy a better house with a bigger and better listening room but in most cases this is just not on . While I would not really describe the 851,s as small and there were no pictures along side Ektas and Vader,s I presume they are a little bit smaller but have due to the bass drivers enhanced bass output . I am sure they will be fantastic when finished just wish I had loads of surplus income that I could afford to try and get something made that I have always wanted . Sadly pension income is fixed and nothing like as much as I had hoped when I was forty but thats life . Good thing is the Quads are now singing so beautifully in my music room that I just do not care , love reading about these speakers and others views but will have to content myself with just getting to hear a pair at some stage . This is Ektas, my Vaders/CNO4s, 851s, FUSION 3WC, Vaders/CNO4s pyramid. All to scale All without supports/plinths or outriggers (except FUSIONS)
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Arke
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Post by Arke on Apr 7, 2023 20:18:59 GMT
Due to house renovation, I am not building any more speakers until late 2023/early 2024. Prices are difficult to pin down as it depends on spec (wiring, XOs, finish etc.) and component prices. For example, Vader parts (only) have increased by £800 in 6 months. Drivers, XO parts and timber are increasing fast. This is very vague but depending on finished spec and options Approx. Prices are: Ektas £4—5k maybe less if the simple 'Troels' cabinet. 851s £5.5-6k Vaders/CNO4s £8—12k All kits have the option of upgraded caps. The 851s have tweeter options (one is Beryllium) and the Vaders vary in price alot as my facetted cabinets are much more pricey than a standard truncated pyramid. Hope that helps a little. Thank you Jason, much appreciated - have a happy Easter, bank hol. Have a happy Easter too!
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Arke
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Post by Arke on Apr 7, 2023 20:36:49 GMT
Vaders and Estelons in the room (forgot I had this, sorry my phone camera is rubbish): antonio if this is inappropriate I shall delete
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