optical
Moderator
BIG STAR
Be Excellent To Eachother
Posts: 1,572 
|
Post by optical on Oct 9, 2023 9:24:07 GMT
Staying grounded. In my bid to maximise SQ (a trail I think we're all on to a more or lesser extent otherwise why would be even be on this forum!!) I decided to make a little mod to the grounding circuit of the Hypex plate amps in the Vader's. Since my Neurochrome 686 is a bridge tied load (BTL) I cannot use the negative output from the amplifier terminals to ground the amps in the speakers. Previously I've run a thin gauge wire to a rudimentary chassis ground (just screwed to the chassis of the 686), it works but I've always thought it a rather crude solution. This got me experimenting in regards to ground location (ie, where am I getting the ground from) will a different location yield any benefits? It seems logical that it could if there were a lot of other components/electrical signals occupying a similar space leading to crosstalk/electrical noise being more present in some locations than others, perhaps. Initially I took a ground from the IEC inlet side of the 686 (before it goes into the 686 itself). Seemed to work, although I didn't really have time to test for an audible improvement before I re-thought and applied my logic to take the earth point from a location as early within the circuit as possible. This meant running simple grounds/earth directly from the power outlet sockets in the room. I drilled a 9mm hole in the faceplates of the sockets so I could add a speaker terminal which would serve as the ground 'post' directly attached via a 2.5mm solid core copper wire, in parallel to the earth of the room's supply.   Apart from the socket falling apart in my hands after I went digging around in the assembly after losing a grubscrew in there (not an easy one to put back together!) all this went surprisingly well. I've now got one separate earth/grounding terminal on both sockets located close to the Vader's with a short OFC copper wire going directly from the terminal to the speaker.   After a short listening session I think there has been an overall improvement. More listening required though as the preamp/mutec/streamer etc had been off for hours while I sorted the wiring on the outlets etc. Can't take much credit for the design as I've seen sockets advertised with grounding terminals before but always seemed like a good idea to me. I think these terminal could also be very useful for grounding other pieces of equipment in the future, turntables, power supplies, or I might try it with the pre and power amp themselves. I'm sure those with far more experience and knowledge than myself can chime in. Cheers |
|
Bigman80
Grandmaster
AA Founding Member & Bigbottle Audio Creator
Posts: 16,109
|
Post by Bigman80 on Oct 9, 2023 10:16:36 GMT
I love the commitment to this, Chris.
Great work mate.
|
|
|
|
Post by misterc on Oct 9, 2023 10:35:05 GMT
Nice work Chris, although its not grounding this is connecting equipment to the earth protection circuit of the house supply, that somewhat different.
|
|
optical
Moderator
BIG STAR
Be Excellent To Eachother
Posts: 1,572
|
Post by optical on Oct 9, 2023 10:42:37 GMT
Nice work Chris, although its not grounding this is connecting equipment to the earth protection circuit of the house supply, that somewhat different. Indeed but I'm not sure if what I'm doing to the Hypex amps here is load balancing (reducing hum) or electrically earthing (safety protection)? Without this connection there is severe hum so I'm assuming it's for load balancing (as the hypex power inlet is connected to earth for electrical safety which covers that). |
|
Bigman80
Grandmaster
AA Founding Member & Bigbottle Audio Creator
Posts: 16,109
|
Post by Bigman80 on Oct 9, 2023 11:49:27 GMT
Nice work Chris, although its not grounding this is connecting equipment to the earth protection circuit of the house supply, that somewhat different. Isn't everything?! Unless designed specifically not to be? |
|
|
|
Post by misterc on Oct 9, 2023 13:39:34 GMT
Nice work Chris, although its not grounding this is connecting equipment to the earth protection circuit of the house supply, that somewhat different. Isn't everything?! Unless designed specifically not to be?
This is EARTH ground, there is return path (Ground zero volts DC) and ground plane (s) within a circuit board that are responsible for distribution the reference voltage around the product
With TT's if you could have a fully floating isolated system then you would benefit from zero ground loops or hum. If you design a phono stage that is optically decoupled input to output you won't believe the noise floor, rather good there are to.
More noise is generated by return paths and veer placement than pretty muxch anything else other than a pants designs
|
|
Bigman80
Grandmaster
AA Founding Member & Bigbottle Audio Creator
Posts: 16,109
|
Post by Bigman80 on Oct 9, 2023 13:50:07 GMT
Isn't everything?! Unless designed specifically not to be?
This is EARTH ground, there is return path (Ground zero volts DC) and ground plane (s) within a circuit board that are responsible for distribution the reference voltage around the product
With TT's if you could have a fully floating isolated system then you would benefit from zero ground loops or hum. If you design a phono stage that is optically decoupled input to output you won't believe the noise floor, rather good there are to.
More noise is generated by return paths and veer placement than pretty muxch anything else other than a pants designs
I know it's EARTH grounding. |
|
|
|
Post by pete on Oct 9, 2023 14:24:08 GMT
So would we better if earthing, say a turntable, by connecting direct to a house copper water pipe??!!😁
|
|
optical
Moderator
BIG STAR
Be Excellent To Eachother
Posts: 1,572
|
Post by optical on Oct 10, 2023 7:06:05 GMT
So would we better if earthing, say a turntable, by connecting direct to a house copper water pipe??!!😁 I'd imagine it would give a certain 'flow' to the music . . . .  |
|
optical
Moderator
BIG STAR
Be Excellent To Eachother
Posts: 1,572
|
Post by optical on Oct 10, 2023 7:14:01 GMT
Just a quick update on this.
I had a long(ish) listening session last night. The bass is deeper and clearer, I would usually qualify that by saying it's potentially a subjective observation, but it's just not.
Listening to the same music I always listen to at the same volume with no other variables having changed, it gets lower, but it gets there with more detail in the low end.
Case in point, I have had to back off the volume previously listening to some soundscape music as it gets a bit too 'rumbly' and a tad boomy, I previously assumed that this was just becasue I was listening to it with the volume set a bit too high for the room, not the case now. There is just a clean sine-wave style bass with an audible edge to very deep notes. Before the notes could potentially be heard 'blending' together somewhat creating this slight boom within the room.
I'm not sure as to the technical reason for this, if I had to guess I would say the previous setup was electrically noisier or perhaps the ground for the plate amps is benefitting from using thicker gauge wire, or perhaps it's benefitting from the grounds coming from different locations physically (even though they are still on the same ring/circuit.
Whatever is happening I like.
|
|
Bigman80
Grandmaster
AA Founding Member & Bigbottle Audio Creator
Posts: 16,109
|
Post by Bigman80 on Oct 10, 2023 7:56:35 GMT
Just a quick update on this. I had a long(ish) listening session last night. The bass is deeper and clearer, I would usually qualify that by saying it's potentially a subjective observation, but it's just not. Listening to the same music I always listen to at the same volume with no other variables having changed, it gets lower, but it gets there with more detail in the low end. Case in point, I have had to back off the volume previously listening to some soundscape music as it gets a bit too 'rumbly' and a tad boomy, I previously assumed that this was just becasue I was listening to it with the volume set a bit too high for the room, not the case now. There is just a clean sine-wave style bass with an audible edge to very deep notes. Before the notes could potentially be heard 'blending' together somewhat creating this slight boom within the room. I'm not sure as to the technical reason for this, if I had to guess I would say the previous setup was electrically noisier or perhaps the ground for the plate amps is benefitting from using thicker gauge wire, or perhaps it's benefitting from the grounds coming from different locations physically (even though they are still on the same ring/circuit. Whatever is happening I like. I hate to suggest this, but it's it due to skipping the brass in the plug socket? 🤷🏻 Well to a degree anyway |
|
optical
Moderator
BIG STAR
Be Excellent To Eachother
Posts: 1,572
|
Post by optical on Oct 10, 2023 8:10:42 GMT
Just a quick update on this. I had a long(ish) listening session last night. The bass is deeper and clearer, I would usually qualify that by saying it's potentially a subjective observation, but it's just not. Listening to the same music I always listen to at the same volume with no other variables having changed, it gets lower, but it gets there with more detail in the low end. Case in point, I have had to back off the volume previously listening to some soundscape music as it gets a bit too 'rumbly' and a tad boomy, I previously assumed that this was just becasue I was listening to it with the volume set a bit too high for the room, not the case now. There is just a clean sine-wave style bass with an audible edge to very deep notes. Before the notes could potentially be heard 'blending' together somewhat creating this slight boom within the room. I'm not sure as to the technical reason for this, if I had to guess I would say the previous setup was electrically noisier or perhaps the ground for the plate amps is benefitting from using thicker gauge wire, or perhaps it's benefitting from the grounds coming from different locations physically (even though they are still on the same ring/circuit. Whatever is happening I like. I hate to suggest this, but it's it due to skipping the brass in the plug socket? 🤷🏻 Well to a degree anyway Can't rule it out, although the 'busbar' that carries the earth to both socket outlets within the socket assembly, is indeed brass anyway. But perhaps the continued further removal of the brass 'percentage concentration' within the circuit could be affecting things positively? My guess would be that having their 'own' dedicated thicker gauge connection directly to earth just cleans up the output from the Hypex amps a tad. Enough to be audible in my system anyway. I'm just chuffed it sounds better as often these things can simply be a sideways/nil audible effect move. |
|
Bigman80
Grandmaster
AA Founding Member & Bigbottle Audio Creator
Posts: 16,109
|
Post by Bigman80 on Oct 10, 2023 8:16:20 GMT
I hate to suggest this, but it's it due to skipping the brass in the plug socket? 🤷🏻 Well to a degree anyway Can't rule it out, although the 'busbar' that carries the earth to both socket outlets within the socket assembly, is indeed brass anyway. But perhaps the continued further removal of the brass 'percentage concentration' within the circuit could be affecting things positively? My guess would be that having their 'own' dedicated thicker gauge connection directly to earth just cleans up the output from the Hypex amps a tad. Enough to be audible in my system anyway. I'm just chuffed it sounds better as often these things can simply be a sideways/nil audible effect move. My thinking was that you'd connected copper wire together on the rear and the. Gone direct from the wire. |
|
optical
Moderator
BIG STAR
Be Excellent To Eachother
Posts: 1,572
|
Post by optical on Oct 10, 2023 8:20:16 GMT
Can't rule it out, although the 'busbar' that carries the earth to both socket outlets within the socket assembly, is indeed brass anyway. But perhaps the continued further removal of the brass 'percentage concentration' within the circuit could be affecting things positively? My guess would be that having their 'own' dedicated thicker gauge connection directly to earth just cleans up the output from the Hypex amps a tad. Enough to be audible in my system anyway. I'm just chuffed it sounds better as often these things can simply be a sideways/nil audible effect move. My thinking was that you'd connected copper wire together on the rear and the. Gone direct from the wire. Hmmmm . . . thinking about it yes you're right, the wire is directly in contact with the copper house wiring (same gauge too) so yes the signal would not be passing 'through' the brass as it makes contact with the parallel wire (going to the terminal) first. Good thinking. I'm probably way over thinking this as I know the signal doesn't 'flow' in one direction as such but having a more 'direct' connection (as you have pointed out) may well be whats at play here! |
|
|
|
Post by misterc on Oct 10, 2023 8:34:13 GMT
Brass terminals.................................. arhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh Think Prozac responce one's et al all had those delightful brass rods as a jumpers
|
|
