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Post by jazzdad on Dec 19, 2023 9:40:29 GMT
Hi all,
I have a pair of Quadral Style 8 floor standing speakers. I like them alot however there's always been this mid bass issue.
My floor is concrete screed with under floor heating, then a layer of underlay 2mm thick, which has sound reduction of 19db.
Ontop of that is a floating engineered oak floor which has undulations as part of its aesthetics.
After a number of years experimenting with isolation and coupling I've had these results:
* Granite - I've had the speakers on granite chopping boards. The additional mass keeps the speakers stable on the floor but raises the tweeter above ear level.
Result - Hot top end, lack of mid bass. Good instrument separation and sound stage. Tweeter reasonable height but still high.
* outriggers with spikes and shoes - These were an aftermarket addition the dealer produced to improve the stability of the speaker.
Result - Thin bass and mid bass. Difficult to get dialed in. Good imagine and Soundstage. Lacking body. Tweeter too high.
Outriggers with washing machine feet M8 thread.
Result - Sounds fuller than above options. Sounds somewhat recessed across the board. Fairly accurate with good instrument seperation. Still has weak mid bass and bottom end. Tweeter still too high.
*Outriggers with low profile 3mm thick plastic furniture protectors M8 thread and M8 black nuts.
Result - The best of the above. More focused sound. Improved top end. Good Soundstage and mid bass. Speakers disappear more. Still has this essence of ressecess sound.
*Speakers directly on the floor with nothing between.
Result - The absolute best. Tweeter height perfect. Sound enveloping at the sweet spot. Most natural sound. Incredible mid range. Soeakers completely disappear. Mid bass sounds meatier. Sound is at its fullest. The speakers wobble due to small footprint and rounded design. Could be toppled over. The wobbling is detrimental to the lower register of the frequency.
So with this in mind, I've realised the speakers sound their best coupled to the floor. They have their own factory plinth
Which has some stiff rubber/plastic sandwich between it and the underside of the speaker so I believe they were designed to sound best directly on the floor.
I'm wondering if there's a solution to eradicate the wobbling? Blue tac would be excellent but I can't then dial in the toe angle and distance from listener. Maybe someone knows of a product/adhesive feet that are super low profile that'll couple them, allow for adjustment and keep the cabinets stiff over the floor surface?
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Arke
Moderator
Posts: 1,018
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Post by Arke on Dec 19, 2023 10:47:49 GMT
Hi all, I have a pair of Quadral Style 8 floor standing speakers. I like them alot however there's always been this mid bass issue. My floor is concrete screed with under floor heating, then a layer of underlay 2mm thick, which has sound reduction of 19db. Ontop of that is a floating engineered oak floor which has undulations as part of its aesthetics. After a number of years experimenting with isolation and coupling I've had these results: * Granite - I've had the speakers on granite chopping boards. The additional mass keeps the speakers stable on the floor but raises the tweeter above ear level. Result - Hot top end, lack of mid bass. Good instrument separation and sound stage. Tweeter reasonable height but still high. * outriggers with spikes and shoes - These were an aftermarket addition the dealer produced to improve the stability of the speaker. Result - Thin bass and mid bass. Difficult to get dialed in. Good imagine and Soundstage. Lacking body. Tweeter too high. Outriggers with washing machine feet M8 thread. Result - Sounds fuller than above options. Sounds somewhat recessed across the board. Fairly accurate with good instrument seperation. Still has weak mid bass and bottom end. Tweeter still too high. *Outriggers with low profile 3mm thick plastic furniture protectors M8 thread and M8 black nuts. Result - The best of the above. More focused sound. Improved top end. Good Soundstage and mid bass. Speakers disappear more. Still has this essence of ressecess sound. *Speakers directly on the floor with nothing between. Result - The absolute best. Tweeter height perfect. Sound enveloping at the sweet spot. Most natural sound. Incredible mid range. Soeakers completely disappear. Mid bass sounds meatier. Sound is at its fullest. The speakers wobble due to small footprint and rounded design. Could be toppled over. The wobbling is detrimental to the lower register of the frequency. So with this in mind, I've realised the speakers sound their best coupled to the floor. They have their own factory plinth Which has some stiff rubber/plastic sandwich between it and the underside of the speaker so I believe they were designed to sound best directly on the floor. I'm wondering if there's a solution to eradicate the wobbling? Blue tac would be excellent but I can't then dial in the toe angle and distance from listener. Maybe someone knows of a product/adhesive feet that are super low profile that'll couple them, allow for adjustment and keep the cabinets stiff over the floor surface? Could you dial in the toe in with some smaller rubber pads (to allow adjustment) to start and then use blue tack once perfect? |
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Post by alit on Dec 19, 2023 10:48:09 GMT
Have you tried something compliant like Sorbothane half spheres?
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Post by jazzdad on Dec 19, 2023 11:07:22 GMT
Have you tried something compliant like Sorbothane half spheres? I did try this but speakers were going out of measurements. Even the slightest 2 or 3mm seems to be audible and the blue tac sounded different to the temporary felt pads so distances needed adjusting again! Pads were still allowing the speaker to wobble too. I haven't tried any sorbothane. Will they couple to the floor? I also need stability as small children in the house so not sure they'd work? This was also in reply to Alit. |
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Post by alit on Dec 19, 2023 11:26:38 GMT
The speaker will wobble a bit if you nudge it, but it’s pretty steady otherwise. I found it a big improvement on my speakers.
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Post by jazzdad on Dec 19, 2023 11:41:43 GMT
The speaker will wobble a bit if you nudge it, but it’s pretty steady otherwise. I found it a big improvement on my speakers. Where did you get them from? |
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Post by rexton on Dec 19, 2023 12:24:27 GMT
Seek out townshend audio products. Expensive but will get the job done.
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Post by misterc on Dec 19, 2023 12:47:59 GMT
Peak hifi makes out riggers that work for those speakers, personally I never use granite/slate or marble. imho Sepele is much more a suitable material.
Townshends platforms are fine also, one of the better methods of isolation. Track audio isolation feet deliver some quite special results as well.
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Post by jazzdad on Dec 19, 2023 13:18:05 GMT
Peak hifi makes out riggers that work for those speakers, personally I never use granite/slate or marble. imho Sepele is much more a suitable material. Townshends platforms are fine also, one of the better methods of isolation. Track audio isolation feet deliver some quite special results as well. I purchased the speakers and outriggers from Peak Hifi. What I'm trying to achieve is coupling to the floor as in my room this sounds the best. Speakers directly on floor without outriggers, but a way of reducing the instability. The townshend podiums would be great but the cost is greater than the speakers. Plus they'll decouple from the room and I'm looking to couple so not sure if they'd help! |
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Post by misterc on Dec 19, 2023 13:25:54 GMT
I suspect you have a top of the house room loft style listening environment Jazzdad?
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Post by jazzdad on Dec 19, 2023 13:38:12 GMT
I suspect you have a top of the house room loft style listening environment Jazzdad? I'm not lucky enough to have a dedicated room, Would be nice! It's in the main living room approx. 6m x 3.8m and open to the right side. |
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Post by misterc on Dec 19, 2023 13:46:35 GMT
Strange I have found Chromium 8's sound much better when NOT used not with any form straight coupling to the floor, I have installed and set up one or two pairs over the last seven years.
The best solution I have uses has been the Track audio units with small domes so they sit into the carpet without damaging it, however given the initial cost of the speakers was £1800 spending half of that does leave a few people feeling somewhat renticent which I do understand.
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Post by jazzdad on Dec 19, 2023 14:17:40 GMT
Strange I have found Chromium 8's sound much better when NOT used not with any form straight coupling to the floor, I have installed and set up one or two pairs over the last seven years. The best solution I have uses has been the Track audio units with small domes so they sit into the carpet without damaging it, however given the initial cost of the speakers was £1800 spending half of that does leave a few people feeling somewhat renticent which I do understand. I think with carpet you'd definitely want them on outriggers. But for my particular floor with wood and screde they sound their best directly on the floor surface like the images in their brochure. Wondering if there's a squishy feet product they may be benificial? The track audio feet look excellent. However they'd raise the tweeter above ear height and I've found these speakers are at their best when the tweeter is the right height. I'm interested in the track audio podiums but it appears they're not in production anymore |
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Post by misterc on Dec 19, 2023 15:06:52 GMT
Townshend make the podiums not track. No issue with the tweeter heights being 45 mmm higher in at least eight set ups I know of.
You may find producing a RTA of the room a benefical excerise to help you understand why you are obtaining the results you are getting.
Also the use of a seismometer on the speakers withoput and wirth directly coupling is also a great indicator as well
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Post by nonuffin on Dec 19, 2023 15:16:21 GMT
I own a pair of Quadral Style 6's and I made a set of outriggers from sheet ali with spikes to provide stability, which sit on bamboo chopping boards. The floor is suspended with a large void beneath, with underlay and thick carpet on top, but I dont have bass or midrange issues at all.
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Arke
Moderator
Posts: 1,018
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Post by Arke on Dec 19, 2023 15:26:32 GMT
Strange I have found Chromium 8's sound much better when NOT used not with any form straight coupling to the floor, I have installed and set up one or two pairs over the last seven years. The best solution I have uses has been the Track audio units with small domes so they sit into the carpet without damaging it, however given the initial cost of the speakers was £1800 spending half of that does leave a few people feeling somewhat renticent which I do understand. I think with carpet you'd definitely want them on outriggers. But for my particular floor with wood and screde they sound their best directly on the floor surface like the images in their brochure. Wondering if there's a squishy feet product they may be benificial? The track audio feet look excellent. However they'd raise the tweeter above ear height and I've found these speakers are at their best when the tweeter is the right height. I'm interested in the track audio podiums but it appears they're not in production anymore I had a similar issue with my speakers and the tweeter being too high for my (quite low) sofa. I tried a slight downward tilt by raising the rear of the speakers by about 5-10mm. The tilt made a surprisingly big difference. It's not really visually obviously but does bring the tweeter perfectly on axis. A big subjective difference and measurements show it produced a 2-4db lift in mid and high frequencies. |
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Post by misterc on Dec 19, 2023 15:39:52 GMT
I would always suggest with quality ribbon or a decent tweeters a small downward bubble angle of 1-3 degrees depending on the seating postion, some speaker are far more suspectable to beaming and off axis response than others.
Dom
The 6's are a far more easier placement than the 8's which you need to have well into the room to work well.
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Post by hifinutt on Dec 19, 2023 17:33:37 GMT
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Post by alit on Dec 19, 2023 18:56:01 GMT
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Bigman80
Grandmaster
AA Founding Member & Bigbottle Audio Creator
Posts: 16,109
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Post by Bigman80 on Dec 19, 2023 19:01:23 GMT
I suspect you have a top of the house room loft style listening environment Jazzdad? I'm not lucky enough to have a dedicated room, Would be nice! It's in the main living room approx. 6m x 3.8m and open to the right side. You need to decouple IMO. Townsend have never made any speaker I have tried them on sound worse. In no comparison I have done, have coupled speakers sounded better than decoupled with Townsend's. |
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Post by jazzdad on Dec 19, 2023 19:32:14 GMT
Would you place the pucks directly under the speakers with no outriggers? I might try this |
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Post by jazzdad on Dec 19, 2023 19:35:52 GMT
Townshend make the podiums not track. No issue with the tweeter heights being 45 mmm higher in at least eight set ups I know of. You may find producing a RTA of the room a benefical excerise to help you understand why you are obtaining the results you are getting. Also the use of a seismometer on the speakers withoput and wirth directly coupling is also a great indicator as well Great advice thank you. I'll try both and check results. I think the other thing with tweeter height on the style 8 is the lean back cabinet. So they're firing further up over my head when raised too high |
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Post by macca on Dec 19, 2023 19:52:13 GMT
try thin plywood boards (the sort of thing they used for the backs of drawers in cheap furniture).
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Post by jazzdad on Dec 19, 2023 20:50:23 GMT
try thin plywood boards (the sort of thing they used for the backs of drawers in cheap furniture). That's a good option too as it'll stop the wobble and will surely sound better than granite. I'll try this first, then the isolation route with the pucks or feet mentioned |
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Post by jazzdad on Dec 19, 2023 20:58:53 GMT
misterc Have you had experience with the newer Quadral 105? Would be great to hear your thoughts in comparison to the style 8
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Post by stevew on Dec 19, 2023 21:11:49 GMT
try thin plywood boards (the sort of thing they used for the backs of drawers in cheap furniture). That's a good option too as it'll stop the wobble and will surely sound better than granite. I'll try this first, then the isolation route with the pucks or feet mentioned These will do for me until I get Green rated Townshend bars or podiums. www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B0BZ4FS1DF%3Fpsc%3D1%26ref%3Dppx_yo2ov_dt_b_product_details |
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Post by macca on Dec 19, 2023 21:19:09 GMT
always found myself that suspended wooden floors and concrete floors require entirely different approaches.
Suspended wooden usually a much tougher nut to crack so made sure I bought a house with a concrete floor.
As mention above driver height to ear height usually makes big differences so important to get that right when implementing any support solution.
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Post by hifinutt on Dec 20, 2023 10:24:55 GMT
Would you place the pucks directly under the speakers with no outriggers? I might try this It might be worth a try |
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Post by lurch on Dec 20, 2023 17:56:31 GMT
With my MLs and now the SF Toy Towers, I use 30mm thick black marble slabs with quatered, doubled up cheap coasters, glued in each corner on my suspended wood floor. The double thickness of the cork backed coasters (£3 for 4 in Sainsbury's) means the slabs sit about 1mm above the carpet, not had any bass issues since doing this as theres no real coupling with the 14" void apart from the small area where the coasters touch the carpet.
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