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Post by peterthebutcher on Mar 11, 2023 11:30:01 GMT
Over the last few months, I have had a personal family health scare, that impacted any speaker purchase. I have been to a couple of dealers, and heard a Canton Reference 5K and the ATC 40's. I was impressed with them, BUT as an Amphion devotee, am not sure now. I think as am wanting to keep it Amphion, I will look at the Argon 7LS, as a logical upgrade to what I have now (3LS). I started with the Argon 1's 4 years ago, then bought the 3LS from a Scottish dealer sight/sound unseen  not the ideal, I know, but... I will have to buy new, as trying to find a pair in walnut in the UK, well lets say unicorns and rocking horse s*** are/is easier to come by. Thats my wee update so far amphion.fi/products/argon7ls/ |
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Arke
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Post by Arke on Mar 11, 2023 13:04:21 GMT
Have you tried Moorgate Acoustics in Sheffield for Amphion? They should be able to get most stuff if it's available.
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Post by antonio on Mar 11, 2023 15:02:28 GMT
You could also think about a pair of Arke's.
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Post by peterthebutcher on Mar 11, 2023 16:10:28 GMT
Have you tried Moorgate Acoustics in Sheffield for Amphion? They should be able to most stuff if it's available. I use Martin at Analogue Seduction for everything I have (go quite often), apart from the speakers I have now, which came from Elite, up in Scotland 2 years ago |
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Arke
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Post by Arke on Mar 11, 2023 16:14:17 GMT
Fair enough if you have trusted dealer routes already. I'm pretty sure Moorgate stock Amphion and have good links with the distributor.
Good luck finding some in Walnut.
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Post by peterthebutcher on Mar 11, 2023 16:21:38 GMT
Fair enough if you have trusted dealer routes already. I'm pretty sure Moorgate stock Amphion and have good links with the distributor. Good luck finding some in Walnut. I know when I was thinking of the 7LS before Xmas, I corresponded with Bill Leigh via Facebook, and he said there was nothing about as they (Amphion) did not release things as often as a lot of firms did, so people had a tendency to hold on to their 7LS speakers |
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Arke
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Post by Arke on Mar 11, 2023 16:24:36 GMT
Fair enough if you have trusted dealer routes already. I'm pretty sure Moorgate stock Amphion and have good links with the distributor. Good luck finding some in Walnut. I know when I was thinking of the 7LS before Xmas, I corresponded with Bill Leigh via Facebook, and he said there was nothing about as they (Amphion) did not release things as often as a lot of firms did, so people had a tendency to hold on to their 7LS speakers Ah OK, if you've corresponded with Bill direct. Fingers crossed for some soon. |
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Post by hifinutt on Mar 11, 2023 16:42:39 GMT
i often go to see david at the little audio co in Birmingham . you will have seen him in the Hegel/ amphion room at the bristol show i sometimes listen to his amphion 3LS which have a cavernous sound . He has the 7Ls on demo there and i must get a listen sometimes . He would most certainly sort you a walnut pair www.thelittleaudiocompany.co.uk/hifi-stereo-loudspeakers |
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Mar 11, 2023 16:57:44 GMT
You could also think about a pair of Arke's. That would be my strong recommendation |
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Post by macca on Mar 11, 2023 17:13:32 GMT
Have to say Pete that I don't think the 7LS would be much of an upgrade to the 3.
They don't go hardly any lower in the bass so all you'd really be getting is better power handling capability.
I see why you want to stick with Amphion but if it were me I'd be looking at the Krypton 3 for a proper step up. Okay that is a lot more cash. But there's my 2 cents.
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Post by Arke on Mar 11, 2023 17:52:12 GMT
Have to say Pete that I don't think the 7LS would be much of an upgrade to the 3. They don't go hardly any lower in the bass so all you'd really be getting is better power handling capability. I see why you want to stick with Amphion but if it were me I'd be looking at the Krypton 3 for a proper step up. Okay that is a lot more cash. But there's my 2 cents. Not sure I'd completely agree Martin. Yes, the top end will be pretty much the same. However most of the midrange and all the bass is now handled by twice the membrane area... 2x the mid/bass and 2x the passive radiators. Yes, the 7LS only go two Hz deeper, however, the bass should have a fair bit more weight and authority. Vocals and instruments, especially larger ones like Cello and double bass etc. will have more body and realistic quality. Imaging should improve with the MTM arrangement as the mids are symmetrically flanking the tweeter. Last, but not least, the 7LS have a much higher sensitivity (91db vs 85db) - with 6db extra sensitivity the 7LS will play alot louder and more effortlessly. Pete has two large REL subs and having 2x the membrane area handing the mid and upper bass will really aid integration. EDIT: It mostly comes down to what Pete is trying to achieve. Yes, the 7LS won't really give a big jump in SQ or anything new in the voicing. However, they would give him something similar and more of it in the Bass and mids. I agree that he could maybe achieve better SQ by looking elsewhere. Like many things, it probably comes down to budget and SQ preference. |
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Post by misterc on Mar 11, 2023 18:01:02 GMT
Have to agree with Martin, Yes lol, look at another range of speakers the A's always left me feeling what's missing & why I am swapping tracks all the time?
ATC's like muddy bath water best get short of it.
Canton, with the right amps not to shabby, but you don't have the right amps for gel factor 10
Remember space behind, to the side and in front of the transducer is important in the selection of ANY speaker regardless of brand and cost
Just a few Observations
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Post by Bigman80 on Mar 11, 2023 19:16:20 GMT
Over the last few months, I have had a personal family health scare, that impacted any speaker purchase. I have been to a couple of dealers, and heard a Canton Reference 5K and the ATC 40's. I was impressed with them, BUT as an Amphion devotee, am not sure now. I think as am wanting to keep it Amphion, I will look at the Argon 7LS, as a logical upgrade to what I have now (3LS). I started with the Argon 1's 4 years ago, then bought the 3LS from a Scottish dealer sight/sound unseen not the ideal, I know, but... I will have to buy new, as trying to find a pair in walnut in the UK, well lets say unicorns and rocking horse s*** are/is easier to come by. Thats my wee update so far amphion.fi/products/argon7ls/It sounds to me like you are pretty convinced the Amphion are the way forward for you, Pete. I hope you find something that works in your favour. |
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Post by macca on Mar 11, 2023 19:45:37 GMT
Have to say Pete that I don't think the 7LS would be much of an upgrade to the 3. They don't go hardly any lower in the bass so all you'd really be getting is better power handling capability. I see why you want to stick with Amphion but if it were me I'd be looking at the Krypton 3 for a proper step up. Okay that is a lot more cash. But there's my 2 cents. Not sure I'd completely agree Martin. Yes, the top end will be pretty much the same. However most of the midrange and all the bass is now handled by twice the membrane area... 2x the mid/bass and 2x the passive radiators. Yes, the 7LS only go two Hz deeper, however, the bass should have a fair bit more weight and authority. Vocals and instruments, especially larger ones like Cello and double bass etc. will have more body and realistic quality. Imaging should improve with the MTM arrangement as the mids are symmetrically flanking the tweeter. Last, but not least, the 7LS have a much higher sensitivity (91db vs 85db) - with 6db extra sensitivity the 7LS will play alot louder and more effortlessly. Pete has two large REL subs and having 2x the membrane area handing the mid and upper bass will really aid integration. EDIT: It mostly comes down to what Pete is trying to achieve. Yes, the 7LS won't really give a big jump in SQ or anything new in the voicing. However, they would give him something similar and more of it in the Bass and mids. I agree that he could maybe achieve better SQ by looking elsewhere. Like many things, it probably comes down to budget and SQ preference. aye I'm not saying they will be exactly the same just that it' doesn't seem to me like they will be four and a half grands worth of upgrade. Especially now I know there is already subs in the system. Subjectively - and personally speaking - I am not a fan of two and a half way speakers. Or MTM. I like the smooth clarity you get from a well-implemented mid range driver. Bass drivers should just be doing bass, not handling pretty much the whole audible FR. That's an intrinsic compromise you shouldn't have to make at that price level. |
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Post by peterthebutcher on Mar 12, 2023 7:32:54 GMT
Have to say Pete that I don't think the 7LS would be much of an upgrade to the 3. They don't go hardly any lower in the bass so all you'd really be getting is better power handling capability. I see why you want to stick with Amphion but if it were me I'd be looking at the Krypton 3 for a proper step up. Okay that is a lot more cash. But there's my 2 cents. I reckon if I was still working (am now retired on health grounds), they would be my next speakers, but it would also mean upgrading the M700's to say BHK's  plus my PC would need radical improvement |
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Post by peterthebutcher on Mar 12, 2023 7:47:46 GMT
Many thanks chaps for all your suggestions. As far as moving up the food chain from 3 LS to the 7 LS, thats mainly to achieve a better overall sound, maybe I am wrong, don't know. And yes, the bass bit is covered by twin RelS8/12's, so the extra 2dB that the 7's give, is a bit of a mute point. As to the actual speaker driver doing just the one job, like a bass speaker doing just the bass frequencies, that is why I was giving the ATC 40's a serious look.
Amphion was the only speaker that my chosen dealer put together, along with the Anthem MRX 520 amp, then over the past 4 years have managed to secure a highly regarded new PS Pre/Dac and mono amps for 2/2.2 channel (still use the Anthem for a/v). I loved the sound they made and the look of them, so a natural progression was moving up the chain.
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Post by macca on Mar 12, 2023 8:46:32 GMT
Have to say Pete that I don't think the 7LS would be much of an upgrade to the 3. They don't go hardly any lower in the bass so all you'd really be getting is better power handling capability. I see why you want to stick with Amphion but if it were me I'd be looking at the Krypton 3 for a proper step up. Okay that is a lot more cash. But there's my 2 cents. I reckon if I was still working (am now retired on health grounds), they would be my next speakers, but it would also mean upgrading the M700's to say BHK's plus my PC would need radical improvement I don't think it would. Your amplifiers should be able to handle difficult loads www.stereophile.com/content/ps-audio-stellar-m700-monoblock-power-amplifier-measurements and your PC as a source is highly unlikely to become an issue if it isn't one now. Don't let audiophile nonsense dissuade you! On the other hand, since you use subs you don't need some giant floorstanders. A quality 3 way stand mounter would be worth considering, and that wouldn't need to cost four grand. |
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Post by peterthebutcher on Mar 12, 2023 9:05:45 GMT
I reckon if I was still working (am now retired on health grounds), they would be my next speakers, but it would also mean upgrading the M700's to say BHK's plus my PC would need radical improvement I don't think it would. Your amplifiers should be able to handle difficult loads www.stereophile.com/content/ps-audio-stellar-m700-monoblock-power-amplifier-measurements and your PC as a source is highly unlikely to become an issue if it isn't one now. Don't let audiophile nonsense dissuade you! On the other hand, since you use subs you don't need some giant floorstanders. A quality 3 way stand mounter would be worth considering, and that wouldn't need to cost four grand. Stand mounts would be ideal, BUT I have a form of Ataxia, and this bad for my balance, if I need to stand up then steady myself (doesn't happen often) then holding a floorstander is safer than one on a stand. I used to have the Argon 1's on Atacama stands previously. I do get where you are coming from tho |
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Post by macca on Mar 12, 2023 9:42:23 GMT
I don't think it would. Your amplifiers should be able to handle difficult loads www.stereophile.com/content/ps-audio-stellar-m700-monoblock-power-amplifier-measurements and your PC as a source is highly unlikely to become an issue if it isn't one now. Don't let audiophile nonsense dissuade you! On the other hand, since you use subs you don't need some giant floorstanders. A quality 3 way stand mounter would be worth considering, and that wouldn't need to cost four grand. Stand mounts would be ideal, BUT I have a form of Ataxia, and this bad for my balance, if I need to stand up then steady myself (doesn't happen often) then holding a floorstander is safer than one on a stand. I used to have the Argon 1's on Atacama stands previously. I do get where you are coming from tho Okay that's something I couldn't have predicted  |
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Post by macca on Mar 12, 2023 9:47:42 GMT
I can't find any measurements for those ATC speakers, even ATC don't provide any. Manufacturers not providing a complete suite of measurements for their speakers always makes me suspicious. I mean why wouldn't they? They would certainly have done the measurements when designing them.
Subjective reviews of them are good, but then you can never be sure if reviewers actually know what they're talking about, and you so rarely see negative reviews of anything these days.
Worth a demo though I think.
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Post by nonuffin on Mar 12, 2023 10:21:23 GMT
ATC's like muddy bath water best get short of it.
I reviewed a couple of the ATCs a few years ago and I agree totally with Tony's observations. In fact I noticed that the bass was virtually non existant below 50Hz on the models I was glven to evaluate. |
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Post by peterthebutcher on Mar 12, 2023 10:35:05 GMT
I enjoyed the Cantons as much as I initially thought I did as an initial demo at the dealers, BUT rather than use similar amp setup to mine, he put in one costing double what mine did, expensive rack and power conditioner (which I did not have) and some TQ Ultra Black II speaker cable. Fair do's, it bought out what the speaker could do, and next stop was a home demo, but a family health matter meant it had to be knocked on the head
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Post by macca on Mar 12, 2023 10:49:06 GMT
ATC's like muddy bath water best get short of it.
I reviewed a couple of the ATCs a few years ago and I agree totally with Tony's observations. In fact I noticed that the bass was virtually non existant below 50Hz on the models I was glven to evaluate. For the SCM40 ATC quote -6dB at 48Hz so yes, no deep bass. But Pete uses subs so that's not an issue. |
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Post by macca on Mar 12, 2023 10:54:55 GMT
I enjoyed the Cantons as much as I initially thought I did as an initial demo at the dealers, BUT rather than use similar amp setup to mine, he put in one costing double what mine did, expensive rack and power conditioner (which I did not have) and some TQ Ultra Black II speaker cable. Fair do's, it bought out what the speaker could do, and next stop was a home demo, but a family health matter meant it had to be knocked on the head None of that matters, your amps are fine just because one costs twice as much doesn't mean it's any better. In fact I guarantee it won't be regardless of what it was. Power conditioner - will do nothing. Fancy rack - will do nothing unless a turntable was the source and it was sat on it, even then results are unpredictable. Fancy TQ speaker cable - Maybe rolls off the top end a tiny bit due to high capacitance but more likely does nothing that QED 79 strand won't do. None of this stuff will be of any relevance to the sound quality coming from the speaker. The potentially big difference will be acoustics of your room compared to the demo room. |
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Post by jandl100 on Mar 12, 2023 12:30:22 GMT
B#ll#cks
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Mar 12, 2023 13:43:53 GMT
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Arke
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Post by Arke on Mar 12, 2023 13:53:06 GMT
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Post by lurch on Mar 12, 2023 14:14:52 GMT
QED 79 strand performing at the same level as TQ Ultra Black II 🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣 WTF have you been smoking Martin??
That has to be one of the dumbest statements I've ever read on the net.
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Post by antonio on Mar 12, 2023 15:05:40 GMT
I know I disagree with many of macca's thoughts, but what he says in his above post may contain a little of truth. Would all the things mentioned really make you change your preference from the one that would be your favourite in your own system? Maybe if it was a really close call, otherwise I think not. |
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Post by antonio on Mar 12, 2023 15:14:34 GMT
Expanding on my thoughts, I'll ask jandl100 since he was the first to disagree with Macca's post. If we changed the items mentioned by Macca in you system Jerry and replaced your MBL's with Deuvel's, do you think it possible the Deuvel's could become your preferred speaker? I have named Deuvel's since they are omni's, but any speaker could be inserted. |
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not the ideal, I know, but... I will have to buy new, as trying to find a pair in walnut in the UK, well lets say unicorns and rocking horse s*** are/is easier to come by. Thats my wee update so far 
plus my PC would need radical improvement
